Why do we worship God?
Christians, I have a question for you:
Since I’m just a simple-minded atheist, would you mind explaining something for me? Why would an all-knowing being such as god want us to worship it. Seems pretty radical, right? If I was that powerful; created the universe, galaxies, stars, etc, would I give two shits about little ol’ us? I think not. That’d be like me expecting ants to bow down to me and praise my being. Pretty arrogant notion that a god would create a people so that they could worship at his proverbial feet don’t you think?
Posted on June 20, 2011, in Atheism, Lifestyle, Philosophy and tagged atheism, Christianity, god, jesus, worship. Bookmark the permalink. 103 Comments.
nawww, just kidding.
Lyn, did you read my article or not?? I can’t understand why you keep saying I didn’t answer you. Put me out of pain, here, and just tell me if your read my full answer to you, already!!!
Wrong. I said the lack of caring about whether a god exists or not is called apatheism. I used your not caring about Buddhism as an analogy to describe the difference between atheism and apatheism. I never stated you were either an apatheist or an apathetic person.
I understand exactly why Lynn feels ostracized by default. It’s because most religions act like they “own” God. Even if invited to their church it’s basically my way or the highway. The correct response should be “I believe you have value and can enhance my life, Would you like to pray together? What do you think celebrates God?” People talk about “my God, my beliefs, God sez(like they would know), God and I, Me and God.” It’s all sewn up, just do as you’re told.
When they believe so strongly, it must be personal. I would love to be much stronger in my faith but the only thing that inhibits is “my own” sense of “What if I’m wrong?”
I don’t want to be “Strong and Wrong”. Because of that I’m willing to have a little bit of humility….kind of like Jesus.
Also if a person is really, really strong in their faith maybe they could afford to understand more, be more and see more. A good exercise is to visit every church(provided the church has honesty and sincerity) and pray with those people. Read every Spiritual book and ask why or why not? Examine religion as more than attending the church at the end of the block or inheriting your parents choices.
Informationforager.
First you presuppose that we would be unwilling to do that, which I would refute. Lyn has made it clear that he is convinced in his atheism and does not want to come to our church, that he used to go to church and rejected it.
We have accepted him as a collegue and have not in any way put him down for his beliefs. The fact that he would be offended where there was no offense intended is more on him than on us.
It would seem that the real rant on his part is that he does not want any of us to practice our faith in public, that this offends him. I reject that notion as controlling and immature.
Blessings on you and your
John
Hi Info,
As I said, I have never met an atheist. A true atheist would just not care what others believed. The atheists I meet, like you, are somehow fixated on the topic. Your response shows a kind of jealousy that religious people ‘own’ God. Why do you care? Do you want God for yourself? If so, you aren’t an atheist- just confused.
What have you been smoking John?
The Crusades killed people because they were at war with them, as a police action to protect the people who visited the Holy Land. The fact that those they were protecting the pilgrims from were of different belief had little to do with it.
Regarding the Protestant Revolt, the Catholic Church has never taught or condoned that indulgences can be bought or sold as the only means for salvation. Never has, never will. In the backwater where Luther was a priest, there was one priest, Fr. Tetzel, who used oversimplified language to elicit contributions from peasants, which is what really started the revolt.
Now I’m going to turn that around on you, John…Do Protestant ministers ask their flock for extra funds to support their church, and promise blessings because of that donation? Every one I’ve ever seen has done that. Well, that’s exactly what indulgences are…a pious act done as a means for paying for one’s sins. This isn’t the only thing you have to do to reach heaven, but it’s part one.
If you’re going to criticize the Catholic Church, you should know what you’re talking about.
Again you show me disrespect, telling me in a previous post to SHUT UP and now accusing me of smoking illicit substances.
Here is a link for both indulgences and the great crusades
http://courses.wcupa.edu/jones/his101%5Cweb%5C37luther.htm
You are such a TRUE BELIEVER that apparently you want to rewrite history.
Lyn, you need to step in here.
John
First of all, I didn’t say you were smoking illicit substances. I asked a question. Maybe I hit a nerve or something…
John, what you’re basing your belief on is a fabrication. Period. Catholics did not torture people at the behest of the Catholic Church. They certainly went to war with Muslims, who declared themselves enemies of the Catholic faith. But they went to fight to protect Christians-that was the directive of the Church.
There’s obviously a big difference at times between what the Church teaches (which is all that’s relevant) and how people practice their Catholicism. I’ve seen people have themselves nailed to crosses to celebrate Easter. That’s not something the Church teaches. In fact it’s forbidden.
Secondly, the Church does not teach that indulgences can be bought or sold. It’s wrong to buy or sell blessed or consecrated items. If I sell a blessed rosary, it’s not blessed anymore.
Some myths about indulgences:
Myth 1: A person can buy his way out of hell with indulgences.
This charge is without foundation. Since indulgences remit only temporal penalties, they cannot remit the eternal penalty of hell. Once a person is in hell, no amount of indulgences will ever change that fact. The only way to avoid hell is by appealing to God’s eternal mercy while still alive. After death, one’s eternal fate is set (Heb. 9:27).
Myth 2: A person can buy indulgences for sins not yet committed.
The Church has always taught that indulgences do not apply to sins not yet committed. The Catholic Encyclopedia notes, “[An indulgence] is not a permission to commit sin, nor a pardon of future sin; neither could be granted by any power.”
Myth 3: A person can “buy forgiveness” with indulgences.
The definition of indulgences presupposes that forgiveness has already taken place: “An indulgence is a remission before God of the temporal punishment due to sins whose guilt has already been forgiven” (Indulgentarium Doctrina 1, emphasis added). Indulgences in no way forgive sins. They deal only with punishments left after sins have been forgiven.
Myth 4: Indulgences were invented as a means for the Church to raise money.
Indulgences developed from reflection on the sacrament of reconciliation. They are a way of shortening the penance of sacramental discipline and were in use centuries before money-related problems appeared.
Myth 5: An indulgence will shorten your time in purgatory by a fixed number of days.
The number of days which used to be attached to indulgences were references to the period of penance one might undergo during life on earth. The Catholic Church does not claim to know anything about how long or short purgatory is in general, much less in a specific person’s case.
Myth 6: A person can buy indulgences.
The Council of Trent instituted severe reforms in the practice of granting indulgences, and, because of prior abuses, “in 1567 Pope Pius V canceled all grants of indulgences involving any fees or other financial transactions” (Catholic Encyclopedia). This act proved the Church’s seriousness about removing abuses from indulgences.
Myth 7: A person used to be able to buy indulgences.
One never could “buy” indulgences. The financial scandal surrounding indulgences, the scandal that gave Martin Luther an excuse for his heterodoxy, involved alms—indulgences in which the giving of alms to some charitable fund or foundation was used as the occasion to grant the indulgence. There was no outright selling of indulgences. The Catholic Encyclopedia states: “[I]t is easy to see how abuses crept in. Among the good works which might be encouraged by being made the condition of an indulgence, almsgiving would naturally hold a conspicuous place. . . . It is well to observe that in these purposes there is nothing essentially evil. To give money to God or to the poor is a praiseworthy act, and, when it is done from right motives, it will surely not go unrewarded.”
Of course, go ahead and bluster about me laughing at your beliefs and ignore the sound teaching and truth that is there.
David, you asked a very disrespectful question, like if I asked you have you stopped beating your wife yet? The clear implication of disrespect was all over your comment, just like the last time telling me to SHUT UP.
Of course everyone knows that selling indulgences is crap, but that did not stop the pope from doing it.
John
I have no disrespect for you, John, Never have, never will. I don’t respect your misinformed characterizations, though, and I’m entitled to that. I also have a right to say your wrong. You have an INCORRECT view of Catholicism, and I’m going to correct it with facts when you spout off about something you’re not informed about. As you could if I made some comment about Baptists or of your profession. I don’t criticize Baptists because I honestly don’t know what ‘Baptists’ stand for. My mom’s a Baptist and my sister’s a Baptist. I guarantee they don’t think the Baptist Church holds exactly the same beliefs.
Regarding the crusades, there’s only estimates, which range from 1 million to 9 million killed in about 500 years. That’s both sides, and the upper number includes all of the Christian/Islamic wars, including Christians taking over Spain. Keep in mind that there was retaliation on the Christian side because, remember, Northern Africa was totally Christian for about 700 years…So even at the upper limit, you’re talking about a war killing 18,000 per year across the whole Mediterranean basin…
Already informed about indulgences.
Again, John, if you wish, when you spout misinformation, should I just say you’re wrong, misinformed, lying?
And you still haven’t proven torture and killing for the crime of not believing.
And you’re wrong about the Pope selling indulgences. Got proof of that? or just another misinformed statement?
David
http://www.founders.org/journal/fj36/editorial.html
You say you don’t disrespect me, telling me to shut up is disrespectful and asking me what have I been smoking is definitely disrespectful. You owe me and the readers of this blog an apology.
And as far as proof, I have offered numerous biblical references for proof of my previous claims and you just toss them off as if they did not matter and that the only thing that matters is the pope. Jesus is wrong and the catholic church is right.
This is why I am an EX CATHOLIC.
John
I never told you to shut up. Care to misinterpret me, too? I’ve seen you accuse people of drinking the Koolaid, John, was that disrespectful of you? No, but when someone says tantamountly the same thing to you, it’s suddenly not ok…I don’t owe any apology. I dislike your non-factual mythical treatment of my church, and I will put the record straight, and maybe educate you and a few others in the process.
Regarding your link…Now I see. You’re trusting a resource outside the Church to tell you what went on inside the Church. Tetzel was not an ‘ambassador of the pope’. He was selling indulgences, but he did so of his own accord, not at the Church’s behest. Readers may look above to see what indulgences really are, and what they aren’t in the Catholic Church.
The article is fraught with error. Purgatory was defined at Florence, but it was taught and believed as shown in the New Testament, 1 Cor 3:11-15 is where the doctrine comes from. It’s really strange, though how you can equate one rogue priest with the Catholic Church. As if Charles Stanley were to slip up it would mean the whole Baptist Church did something wrong.
Look, John, priests are people, too. They say the wrong things, do the wrong things, just like you and I do. Sometimes they even speak falsely what the Church teaches. That doesn’t make it what the Church teaches. Church teaching is written down for all to see. It’s in the Bible, 100% and in the Apostolic Tradition of the Church, as well as what is truly taught by the Magisterium. That’s why it would behoove Catholics and non-Catholics alike to know what the Church actually teaches, so that when someone says something wrong, like John Wayne was born in Waterloo, we know that the person must have misspoken, and can go and question the person, if the misspeak was substantive.
Martin Luther, and the rest of the revolters were looking for an excuse to teach their version of Christ. The secular society of the time was an enabler in all this. The Catholic Church has never changed on anything substantive, because it comes directly from God.
The pope never sold indulgences. Proof please? Also, nobody sold indulgences at the pope’s request.
Look, there’s no question that corruption crept into the clergy, John, it happens every day, probably. That’s why the Church is so careful to express what she believes and what she teaches. And that’s also why we say that the Church goes through reformation on a daily basis, as must we all. It’s like using GPS to make sure you’re headed where you think you’re headed.
Let me shout it from the rooftop:
“THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A HUMAN ORGANIZATION WITHOUT CORRUPTION”. But God is steadfast. Jesus is steadfast. The Holy Spirit is steadfast. Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to protect the apostles, and their successors from teaching error to the faithful. And never in 2000+ years has the Church taught something that was inconsistent with the Bible. You can disagree with an interpretation or something, and that’s your personal perrogative. But you cannot say that what the Catholic Church teaches is against what Jesus taught. It can’t happen.
You specifically said: “why don’t you just shut up and do what you want to?”
Drinking the kool aid is different than what are you smoking. Drinking the kool aid was a metaphor.
If you want to see them as equal so be it, but I never told you to shut up.
I have never had a problem with you disagreeing with me aobut church doctrine except when you say christ is wrong and that the church had to clean up behind God because God screwed up.
John
You really know how to put emphasis where none is meant. And how to deflect the truth. While I might have put the two words ‘shut up’ together, that wasn’t what I said to you. And you know it.
You also know that “What koolaid have you been drinking” and “What have you been smoking” are the same thing.
Whatever, John, just ignore the message and focus on anything that appears to attack you.
Where did I ever say Christ was wrong? Where did I ever say anyone had to clean up behind God or that God screwed up? There you go with that Baptist kool-aid again.
Just stop spewing urban legends, and you’ll be ok, John. You probably think that the Catholic Church aided Hitler, too. Wanna write about that? I can show otherwise.
I think you’re a ex-Catholic because you don’t really believe the Bible, or you want to interpret it to say what you want it to say, and not what it really says. You don’t believe that Jesus resides in His Church as he told us in John 6. You don’t believe 1 Corinthians which proves the understanding that we must eat Jesus’ body and drink his blood to have eternal life, and that we must do so worthily.
This is not only the Pope’s teaching, John, it’s the Church’s teaching for 2000 years. The entire Catholic faith is what has been taught for 2000 years, not just the Pope’s say-so.
Jesus cannot be wrong and the Church be right-the Church IS Jesus, and Jesus IS the Church. What we have is 2000 years of solid straight-forward teaching of what Jesus said taught by those who heard him teach it, rather than ignoring 1500 years of truth and then making up what you want. John, where in the Bible does it say that immersion is the only way Baptism can be performed?
Actually I do believe in God and have written several posts about prayer, faith, empathy and other spiritual matters. I don’t think I’m confused or jealous, I just believe in a God that is all inclusive. Again many religions end up saying my way or the highway. I believe that WE are on the highway and that nobody can get off. We are all in this together.
You’re missing the point. Here let me show you how!
Lyn,
I don’t believe in a God that wants us to infinately bow down to him but….
WHAT DO YOU THINK? I VALUE YOUR IDEAS AND OPINIONS.
If you were God how would you want people to treat you?
Do you have any ideas on what God SHOULD BE LIKE?
Do you believe that Love plays a part in all of this?
Would you just send ONE savior or would you send everyone?
Would you invent Hell?
Would you create a devil?
Would you have a punishment system and if so would it be for an unjust eternity?
Is there ANYONE that you can think of that is representivive of God?
Would you love everyone and everything that you ever created or would the early models just be knockoffs?
Would you ever want to just wipe us out and start over.
Info again – I think Lyn does want people to practice their faith but he can do without people’s attitudes that tacit message that conveys the “I’m Saved and you’re not.” I believe that if Lyn actually saw good people practicing their faith justly and lovingingly he would pleased. Part of the problem is that again religion divides into the us versus them, the Saved versus the Unsaved. Peace be to us.
Well, just remember, there is only one Truth. God in his infinite mercy can get us there, and will if we submit to his will, but Jesus himself said that the road to heaven was narrow…
I didn’t toss anything off, but I did say that your interpretation was erroneous. You’re ex-Catholic because you want to make God in your image instead of being made in his…
The original “Designed to piss of Christians” question asked by Lyn is in and of itself proof that Atheism, is a religion. People like him worship themselves and see themselves as deity and moreover as of late are becoming more militant in forcing their self deity on others.
As to the Catholic issue, the “church” persecuted my order and burned them at the stake after much torture. My order was banned and its members hunted like dogs. Of course the church now admits that they likely did nothing wrong. Hitler also killed many of us alongside the Jews in the camps.
I am a Christian, and have taken an obligation upon myself to defend Christianity, I also feel that any congregation larger than 50 contains corruption. Large organized religion is noting more than feelgood entertainment. This includes the godless religions of Earth Worship and Atheism.
True Christians (people who repent from their sins, have a relationship with Jesus, and strive to be more like him) worship God because worship is our response to Him. Worship is not necessarily falling on one’s knees and singing praises, although that can be a form of it. Worship is simply responding to God–thanking Him, expressing love to Him, and just spending time with Him. As a Christian, everything I do should be glorifying (and therefore worshipping God). I can run my cross country meet next week for God–an act of worship. I can share Jesus’s love by loving others–an act of worship. I can eat peanut butter with a spoon and thank Him for it–an act of worship. God wants us to worship Him because he wants to spend time with us and because He knows He should be glorified–he’s never sinned. We have. It’s only logical that he should be elevated above the rest of us, and yet lowered Himself to our level and sent Jesus to earth. We worship Him to thank Him for this and to spend time with Him. Who doesn’t enjoy spending time with someone they love? I don’t see worship as a response demanded by a bratty, snotty god–there’s no one more humble than Christ. No, I see worship as more of a love exchange than anything else, desired by both God AND His worshippers. I pray this helps!
The Lord bless and keep you; may His face shine upon you, and be gracious, and give you peace. <
In my life ive come across very few “simple-minded” atheists. The very word implies said person has done exhaustive amounts of research in order to prove there is no God and thus carry the title “atheist.” Your question of “why would God care about lil ol us,” is simply because He created us. Not only that, but He created us in HIS image….just like Dads today who feel an overwhelming sense of love and admiration when their son says, “dad, I wanna be just like you when i grow up,” God has a love for that which is created after His own likeness. The bible commands us to be imitators of Christ…His Son and Paul calls us “heirs” several times throughout the new testament. God cares for His children in the same way a Father here on earth would and so much more.
As for your other question, “why would He want us to worship Him…” First, He doesn’t NEED our praise or worship….but He loves it. Like a doting Father over a cherished child. I don’t worship God only be aide the bible tells me to or because I am afraid He would smite me if I didn’t….I worship God out of love, adoration, thankfulness and obedience. He sent His one and only Son to die in my place, to pay my debt which can only be paid by death, and therefore made the way for me to get to heaven. He loves me so much, just for me to be with Him, He gave everything. I hope your questions and seeking bring you to a place of humble surrender as God leads you down a path filled with salviffical road signs along the way.
Godbless
But see, this is where you have gone wrong. You are basing your entire being on a hunch. A hunch that the barbarians who wrote the bible one, are telling the truth; and two, if they are telling the truth, they aren’t either over exaggerating or completely misunderstanding the events.
But more importantly, the onus is on the Christian to prove that god DOES exist, not the other way around. Here’s a game that I like playing with Christians. It’s called, “you prove that Unicorns don’t exist, and I’ll prove that Gods don’t exist.” Wanna play?
You can’t prove God or the authors of the bible are right in a court of law. It is simply a matter of faith which you are in short supply. Billions of people around the world believe and I suppose you think us all deluded and not as intelligent as you. I have never known an atheist who did not have a highly inflated opinion of themselves
John Wilder
So the very fact that YOU believe something makes it so? And to your point about people the world over believing. That’s a misnomer. First, there are more nonbelievers in the world than Christians – fact. Second, Christianity began as LAW. Not as an option like we have today. And, understanding that most human beings are sheep, sticking with the traditions of our parents is the most natural thing to do. Why do you suppose that “faith” is radically different wherever you go? Why is Christianity mostly an American “thing?” I’ll tell you why, because it’s man made.
It would be so easy if one, just one, Christian could provide evidence of a superior being. Wouldn’t it? We wouldn’t have this discussion, but it would be wonderful to know none the less. But that just isn’t the case now is it. We must have these discussions, time and time again, because some people need to feel important in this world. A security blanket for their day. So I assure you, John, we are not the arrogant ones. If anything, atheists are humbled by the reality that surrounds us; not by the fantasies of grandeur we conjure up for ourselves.
It seems that this discussion was started just to get people riled up. Congratulations, Lyn, you succeeded. I notice that you harp on Christians and their belief in God, but you don’t require other religions to defend their beliefs. Would you demand a Muslim prove to you that Allah exists?
As for worshiping God, I personally do not believe that God demands our worship. Most of those demands to worship God come from Religious clerics who have something to lose if people didn’t do as they say. I think God just wants us to acknowledge his existence, and not only when we curse. him.
As for religion, that is man made. Different denominations or groups of people who each have their own view of God are all made by people. God never required religion. It isn’t necessary when it comes to acknowledging him.
As for what the Bible says about it, well that is open to interpretation. One thing to remember is that the Bible was written by men as a way to explain event in the world. Perhaps some were divinely inspired. It’s a bit difficult to prove one way or the other. Also, I’m sure a few things got lost as the Bible got translated from one language or the other. I’m not saying to disbelieve the Bible, but don’t take it literally. People in the ancient world wrote more symbolic literature and the Bible in no exception.
As for proving/disproving God’s existence, that is like finding the exact numerical value of pi. The planet Earth serves as a good example that a deity of sorts must exist. You can give him whatever name you want. Science with its big bang and evolution has only proven that there were an awful lot of coincidences concerning the formation of Earth and the life on this planet. I’m not a big believer in coincidence.
The thing is, I don’t think you care what proof people provide for God’s existence. God himself could knock on your door and you would see him. You’ve already made up your mind that he doesn’t exist and it appears that you are hell bent on making those who do believe in him look like fools.
I know I haven’t answered your questions, but you asked for people’s opinion and I gave you mine.
I appreciate your opinion. It is actually really good. Not that you’re seeking my approval.
I particularly agree on the points about religion and the bible. And yes, the point of this website, actually, is to get people fired up enough to want to speak about those topics typically regarded as taboo. So the format is typically a little forward.
And yes, I want to wake people up. I want to turn as many christians/muslims/jews/whatever as I can. They’re dangerous and have no place in our modern society. You were right, the bible was nothing more than a collection of efforts of our ancient selves attempting to understand life. Not to be taken literally. BUT… religion is widespread and a complete pandemic. There are enough sheep in the world that can’t think for themselves. They take the bible literally, Janet. And THEY are the ones that are dangerous. You seem well educated and open minded. I would trust your judgement. But a person who takes ques from their imaginary friend, I have no use for.
And yes, you’re absolutely right, gods can neither be proven or disproven. Just as you can’t prove to me that a unicorn does not exist.
But you are wrong in regards to atheists and science. See, we understand that information MUST change once new information proves more valid. That the major difference. The very basis of science is the search for truth. If science, or atheists for that matter, had all the answers, it would cease to exist.
My real issue with religion is that conservatives believe that their (Christian) religious morals should be encoded into U.S. law.
“They’re dangerous and have no place in our modern society. You were right, the bible was nothing more than a collection of efforts of our ancient selves attempting to understand life. Not to be taken literally. BUT… religion is widespread and a complete pandemic.”
Is that a quote from A. Hitler or J. Stalin, you are one dangerous little nazi assmonkey. It does not satisfy you to mock another’s religion, but you advocate killing those who believe differently than you? Should I pin on my Blue Forget-me-not and get in line for the ovens?
People like you are why I spend lots of time at the range.
PFSOCATS
Looks like I got you all fired up, BR. Good. We need to open up the discussion. We need to speak aloud these barbaric notions of a floating man in the sky. And put god where he belongs, back on the shelf with Santa, Smurphs and other fantastical creatures. Let’s grow up, move past our need for imaginary friends, shall we?
Lyn,
1. I am always fired up for the Lord God, Psalm 115, I live it
2. Must be nice to live in a world with no moral consequence for your actions. I find it interesting that when the truth comes out it is your side that wants everyone who is different in belief dead? Soooo why are you so threatened?
Atheism defined: INTOLERANT and Xenophobic
3. If you are serious about what you wrote, you are one of two things, a true Communist or a National Socialist. This comes from the “feeling” that you are your own god, so you see anyone with different beliefs as a problem to be eradicated. Seek professional help.
4. I will pray for you to feel less hate towards others that are different, I mean honestly my side in this debate has not burned a witch in 300 plus years! You guys need to get with the program and learn to tolerate those who are not like you. Next thing we know you might be posting on the advantages of lynching those of us with different pigmentation than you.
Bob
I’ll respond in kind:
1. n/a
2. I love hearing this, actually. I used to have a writer on her, shortlilrebel. She got all fired up one day during a debate with another (atheist) writer. Essentially, she became, purposefully mind you, really nasty towards him. It made everyone really uncomfortable. Her point was this: “Without a point of reference (god), how can you gauge what’s appropriate/inappropriate behavior?” Good argument, I agree. Problem with that logic is, she’s coming from a side that can’t see any other option outside of the “faith” bubble. We (atheists) don’t rely on dogma to govern our actions. Our human instinct to be surrounded by love governs our actions. Example: If I am nasty to this person, they might not want to be my friend. If I kill that person, i might go to prison. If I steal from so and so, I will lose people’s trust. Get it. It really is a simple concept. Christians feel that they have a monopoly on the moral repository. So vain.
3. So I’m either a Christian or a Communist? Where’s youre logic coming from on that one? See, it’s not a black and white issue with atheists. ALL human beings are unique. We all seek love a different way. To propose a one size fits all scenario is unfortunate for those who simply don’t fit into that glove. That’s where the oppression comes from.
4. Speaking of oppression, tolerance is not a word known by Christians. Are you kidding me? Yeah, there’s a short tolerance if you think there’s a chance to convert more of you. But once you’ve realize that they’re a lost cause, they quickly become the “enemy.” Christianity was founded on hatred, and enforced by bloodshed. Only in recent years has Christianity become an option. Come on, Bob. Who are you trying to convince, me or you?
Lynn the problem you are referring to is Existentialism that man is alone in the world and thus must make up his own rules and reject society’s. The problem with that is that there are all kinds of broken people in the world such as NAMBLA the North American Man Boy Lovfe Assn whose sole purpose is to lobby Congress to legalize sex between men and boys.
I once treated a young woman whose father sexually abused her every night starting at 5 and continued until she was 17. Her mother of course knew all about it and was glad that she did not have to put out and was relieved that her daughter was subbing (unwillingly) for her.
Without ABSOLUE authority people will invent their own separate morality which can excuse anything. I reject your philosophy on i8ts face.
But, absolute authority, that’s where we part. I don’t believe it exists. So here we are at an impasse. The governing authority of something fictional. AND, better yet, radically different than your neighbor’s version of that governing authority. The list goes on and on. What’s your proposal?
Well the bible represents absolute authority. Barring that there are things that are intrinsically wrong and intrinsically right. We as a society need to enact those things into law. The problem with that again is that you get people willing to kill innocent unborn babies as not wrong
But you’re missing my point. Atheists aren’t the only ones who disagree with Christians. 99% of all other faith-based religions disagree with the Christian philosophies. Why? They have their own brand of insight. So how can you be RIGHT?
The Bible is the historical record of God dealing with man. All other faiths disavow it and reject the idea that we can have eternal life based not upon our own works but by the shared sacrifice that Jesus made to atone for our sins. Ours is the only faith that promises us
an afterlife that is not of our own doing.
But, step outside a moment. Put yourself in say, a Budhist’s shoes (sorry, I had to, lol) for a moment. He obviously doesn’t buy what your selling. And he feels exactly how you do. He’s just as passionate about his philosophy as you are of your faith. Is it possible to have two “rights?”
Actually there can only be ONE right. Jesus said: “There is only one way to the Father and that is through me”
Well then, I guess you win this argument.
Lyn asked an interesting and provocative question, and I’ve found Gregory Koukle’s article, “Is God Vain,” which approaches the subject from a philosophical perspective, to be the most satisfying answer to your question:
http://www.str.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=5274
Hey, franuche, welcome to Rants. Thank you for the link.
The article was very interesting. The author attempts to explain that god is the adult in this relationship and therefore can do what he wants. A “do as I say, not as I do” monicker. And while I don’t buy any of that either, it doesn’t really answer my question.
I’m asking, “Why would he care?” Supposing there is a god, and he did indeed create the very computer I’m typing on, essentially, his/hers/it’s mind/essence/presence must be on a level beyond our comprehenshion. Right?
Have you ever watched an ant, franuche? How long did you make it before you were bored out of your mind? And I’m almost certain that the gap from ant to man is even greater still than from man to god. Agreed?
If so, the question stands: Would a god really concern himself with things like prayer, worship, kindness, obedience, humility, war, crisis, famine, corruption, sex, crime, bigotry, vanity, wealth, etc, etc, etc? Aren’t these things merely trivial, humanly fascinations – to a god?
Actually, Koukle’s article was a precise refutation of your contention that it’s “pretty arrogant that a god would create people so that they could worship at his proverbial feet.” However, I suspect that you didn’t understand his argument because you have a mistaken idea of what worship is. Our word worship comes from the Old English word “woerthship,” and it is essentially ascribing worth to something or someone, recognizing the worth that is inherent in something or someone.
Koukle argues that we naturally and rightly ascribe worth to things or persons according to their merit, and the difference between our ascribing worth to God and our ascribing worth to things or people is that the things or people we ascribe worth to are temporal and contingent in nature, whereas when we ascribe worth to God we are recognizing the inherent worth of someone (the only one) who is on an infinitely grander scale, because he is infinite and self-existent, and our very lives were brought into existence by him from nothing and continue by his sustaining power. Thus, there is not only a difference in degree associated with why and how we worship God, but there’s a difference in kind.
Naturally, then, our worship of God will be unlike our “worship” of any created or contingent thing that we ascribe worth to; in fact, that is why we properly designate worship as a category all to itself and appropriate only to God, whereas our “worship” of things and people is better termed appreciation. Therefore, the argument is, in a nutshell, that God wants us to worship him because it is an appropriate response for grateful, temporal creatures that have been created out of nothing, and bestowed with life, love and the amazing abilities we have by an infinitely powerful and gracious God.
You may view worship as something akin to groveling, and God as an egotistical tyrant that has a perverse need for the praise of lesser beings, but that may be due to your ignorance of who God is, or perhaps even an inflated sense of your own self. Whatever the reason, the fact that “you wouldn’t give two shits about little ‘ol us” if you were god only goes to show why God is worthy of worship and you’re not! “Why would he care,” you ask. The answer is that it is his nature to care. Conversely, you may want to ask yourself why you don’t care. I think you’ll find it’s because that is your nature.
You also asked, “Why would a god really concern himself with things like prayer, worship, kindness, obedience, humility, war, crisis, famine, corruption, sex, crime, bigotry, vanity, wealth, etc.? Aren’t these things merely trivial, human fascinations – to a god?” The answer, of course, is that God ascribes immense worth to us! And remarkably, he ascribes worth to us in a degree that indicates his benevolence (more reason to worship him!). He sees more worth in you than you do. He concerns himself with us because he values us, and to such a degree that he will even stoop so low as to become one of us, and die on the cross to redeem us from our sin and pride.
Franuche
Kudos for a very well stated and cogent analysis.
Franuche,
Thank you. I absolutely understand, now, your answer – for the first time, actually. The article lost me. I immediately placed it in a box of irrelevance for my question.
A lot of times, throughout debates, people are so consumed with winning the debate over finding the truth; debates can quickly become arguments if we aren’t careful.
All,
I concede my question. Unless another “skeptic” can rebut Franuche’s argument, I have nothing to add.